Why Copywriting & Storytelling Are Key To Product Management

It’s a special crossover episode of Build! And the first episode in our brand new dedicated feed (subscribe here to stay up to date when new episodes drop).

Today’s guest? Dave Gerhardt, Drift’s VP of Marketing. Dave discusses his one week spent as a product manager at Drift plus, the real meat of this episode – how to write good copy and tell a story with your product. Copywriting and storytelling are key to product management. If you can’t tell the story and motivate your team, they won’t know where to go next. On this episode of Build, how to build that excitement and get everyone on the same page.

You can get Build on Apple PodcastsSoundCloud, SpotifyStitcher or wherever you get your podcasts.

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In This Episode

00:38 – DG’s one week as a product manager
2:17 – The most underrated skill at a company: internal marketing
5:15 – Read it out loud, say what you mean
6:40 – Simplify
8:00 – Would you say that out loud?
8:28 – Use their words
10:45 – Let your customers write the copy
12:20 – The swipe file
13:44 – Storytelling
14:10 – Five parts of a story
15:34 – The best books on copywriting
18:13 – The best books on storytelling
19:00 – DG’s storytelling secret:  The Steve Jobs’ keynote
19:46 – The hardest part of storytelling in product
21:34 – Two ways to sell a shovel

Read & Watch

Full Transcript

Maggie Crowley: Welcome.

Dave Gerhardt: Welcome.

Maggie: Whose show is it?

DG: How do you do your intro normally?

Maggie: I intro the guest, but I don’t think you need an introduction.

DG: What would your intro be?

Maggie: Welcome to Build.

DG: Welcome to Build. We’re building ladies and gentlemen, check your git hubs, get your code ready. We are here. Everybodys’ favorite engineer is on Build today.

Maggie: Yes, yes.

DG: How’s it going?

Maggie: Number one [crosstalk 00:00:29].

DG: That’s right. There’s a really funny story actually. Matt always loves to tell this story. Do you know that I was a product manager for one week at Drift.

Maggie: No.

DG: The look on your face says everything.

Maggie: Wow. You’re not nearly nervous enough.

DG: No.

Maggie: No.

DG: We had this product called the Drift Daily where before we really launched anything, we basically ingested all of your data from email like you’d hook up mail, constant contact and then we would send you a report as you got new subscribers. It was really cool actually. It’d be like boom, these five people joined your list. Maggie has a hundred thousand followers and she’s connected to these five people you know on Twitter. Andrew was building it and I was sitting next to Andrew and they were like you have a bunch of ideas for this so you’re going to be the product manager for this.

Maggie: Okay.

DG: In a true fashion, it’s not like you’re not gonna do marketing. You’re just gonna do this.

Maggie: Right. You’re gonna also yeah, both.

DG: I didn’t think it was that bad, but we ended up not doing it and now-

Maggie: So you [inaudible 00:01:24] your future.

DG: Of course, it did. I just put a bunch of things on tarot cards and was like done, doing now, icebox, later, whatever.

Maggie: You nailed it. That’s [crosstalk 00:01:33].

DG: Basically product manager.

Maggie: Yeah.

DG: Literally like the only part I remember, but now Matt loves to spin this story into oh remember when DG was a product manager. Anyway, why do you think I wouldn’t be a good product manager?

Maggie: I think you’d be a great product manager.

DG: No, I don’t-

Maggie: No really because that’s what I want to talk about today is that copywriting and storytelling I think is the key to product management because if you can’t tell the story then you can’t motivate people, then how does the team even know what they’re doing?

DG: I love that topic. Let’s unpack that. I think I would be a terrible product manager by the way.

Maggie: Okay.

DG: Because I’m all sizzle. All sizzle, not much steak which is like a problem. I think … you and I have talked about this a couple times. Not a lot, but multiple times. When we talk, we talk about this which is I think … actually had nothing to do with product management which you should spin as we talk about this. I think that they most underrated skill at a company is internal marketing. Whether you’re in marketing or not, it’s called internal marketing because I think so much of work unless you own your own company and you’re a solo person, freelancers relying on other people helping you out especially as a team grows and scales or getting people fired up. I think so much of it is explaining the why and getting people around you rallied behind this thing that you’re going to go do.

Maggie: That is product. The whole goal of a product manager is what are you doing and why? Really it’s just the why.

DG: We’ve talked a lot about the why because especially if you’re building something like a product, if you can’t get people inside of your company fired up about it, then how are you ever gonna get somebody who has no relationship with you or no knowledge of you to care. I also think you can feel the difference when the whole company is excited about something. I think that’s one of our secrets sauces at Drift is like everybody at Drift wants to do marketing. I think that bleeds out externally. I think the same thing is true with products. I think you have certain products that you use that you can tell that the people who built that product really freaking love it and are passionate about it.

Maggie: Yeah, absolutely. I think when I think about products and really this kicked off for me when you were Tweeting about copywriting being everything. I started thinking about it within what we do and I think if you can’t tell a story and the story product includes the characters, the conflict, sell your users, what’s wrong, what you’re solving for, where you’re trying to take them. That whole arc applies to every feature in everything that you do. You’re right, if you can’t explain that to someone verbally, written, through copy in the products, I don’t think you’re gonna build something that’s good.

DG: It’s so true. I’ve worked with a lot of product managers in different places, other companies, different jobs and I think something … this weird thing happens and I don’t know anything about building products. I sat next to David [Cancel 00:04:10] for three years and so I know about building products from that, but this weird thing happens when a product manager has to write a spec for something. What do you call it?

Maggie: A one pager.

DG: A one pager, whatever. People shift and did this weird non-human thing and they’re writing these weird words and phrases like as a blank, I would like to … I get the job’s to be done framework and stuff, but it felt out of control. Why should marketing then have to take that one pager and then translate it into words that the customers will use that we’d use in the website.

Maggie: Right.

DG: I just think that the one pager should be helpful for me as a marketer because hey, we’re already doing the work. Here’s how we’re gonna talk about this. You might change the words, but I think that’s so important where it’s not just some madlibs formula that you pass off to the engineers and they go like build your thing. It doesn’t get done that way.

Maggie: Yeah, and I think that’s the Amazon model of the press release before you even start because if you can’t explain that value, it doesn’t matter. What I want to know is we have to tell stories, but to tell them internally, externally as product people, how do we do that? I grew up in a household where my dad every day, whatever I was writing he’d read and he would tell me to delete all of it and say, say what you mean.

DG: I love that. Say what you mean.

Maggie: He would say, tell me what you’re trying to do here. [crosstalk 00:05:21] write that. How do you teach people to get better at copywriting?

DG: That is such a good lesson, the say what you mean thing.

Maggie: But you’re not allowed to say what you mean.

DG: We’re not allowed to say what you mean. It’s crazy because those are the two things that if you told anybody that, they would agree with you. It makes obvious sense. For me, I just had to learn this lesson which is I think you have to confident. You can’t just roll in anywhere and say, say what you mean. That’s how you write. You have to be confident and show that this works. For me, I’ve read something once, it might have been an old copywriting book and I think it was this Eugene Schwartz Break Through Advertising book. Being able he said, first of all, before we go any further, in order to be successful at copywriting and story telling, you need to throw out everything that they told you about grammar in school. Okay great, because I don’t know my nouns from my adverbs from whatever. Sorry, I don’t, but I can get people to understand me and I think that book made me realize, it’s more important to be understand than it is to be grammatically correct.

You can beat me up all day for my grammar, a typo, this and that, but my only thing I care about is did you understand what I was trying to say. I think sometimes we just get to lost in the how you get there, the story piece of it. Your dads’ advice is so good. It’s like just say what you mean. You ever … you’re having a conversation with your spouse or somebody and you’re all right, you know what, I’m just gonna cut right to it. Here’s what I need. That is the money. Rip away all that stuff and that’s your 10%. Most of the time you only need that 10%. It’s the same thing where Steve Jobs was obsessed with simplicity at Apple. There’s a quote, I don’t know who, some famous author, maybe it was Thorough or something like that said, “simplify, simplify.” If Steve Jobs wrote that quote, “simplify, simplify” it would have been just simplify.

Why say it twice. He said everything was just dead simple and I think that’s really hard to do.

Maggie: Okay. How do you-

DG: Say what you mean.

Maggie: Say what you mean, but how do you teach people to do it. You say okay, they need to simplify, simplify, but how?

DG: One of the tricks that I learned early on here was everything I wrote, I’d have to say it out loud. Say it out loud. I don’t mean grab your piece of paper and be like, hello. Today on Build I am talking to Maggie. Say it out loud like I was standing in line at a coffee shop Maggie’s gonna be on the podcast later. Same thing, right, but real. We’re all people and I think the biggest change is there’s not work Dave who reads things with his work brain in one way and then home Dave. We’re all people. I think saying it out loud and you need a coach. You need somebody who’s gonna question every word that you write. I had D.C. ripping apart every email and blog post and whatever and Tweet even that I wrote in the early days. He would just screenshot stuff and be would you really say that out loud?

Maggie: Yeah, that’s true.

DG: That’s such an easy guard rail, would you say that out loud? Any time I ask that of someone, usually they’re like no, you’re right.

Maggie: Or they start reading and get three words in and they stumble.

DG: Because they know.

Maggie: Right and then they realize that they wouldn’t say it out loud.

DG: Don’t say it out loud.

Maggie: We do the same thing on the product team occasionally. I think Alexa and I yesterday were talking about something and she asked for some feedback and I just said I don’t understand what you’re trying to say and then she explained it to me and I was like write that. Just write that.

DG: Another hack is use their words. If you’re trying to write copy for anything in product, my guess is it’s already been written somewhere.

Maggie: Absolutely.

DG: Especially if you’re building product. [crosstalk 00:08:41].

Maggie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That’s something that product people don’t like to hear.

DG: What?

Maggie: They want to build a new thing. They want to build their own thing.

DG: Innovate. Don’t invent.

Maggie: Innovate, don’t invent.

DG: There’s a great old Wiki post here at Drift from D.C. which is like here’s how a product manager would design a chair. Have you seen that one?

Maggie: I haven’t, but I can imagine.

DG: I don’t know where he found this picture, but it’s this woman in this futuristic looking chair that goes around her head and it’s basically like a ball and it’s like that’s how a product manager or engineer would build a chair.

Maggie: It has every feature you could ever imagine.

DG: Right, whereas why not copy a chair and make it slightly more comfortable. The hack is to use their words and so especially in product. You’re building something because there’s a pain somewhere probably right? At Drift, we’re building stuff for sales and marketing. I would go talk to sales reps, right? I think a lot of people mix this up and say, yeah, I did a bunch of interviews. The gold in doing the interviews is actually then you get to use their words. They already wrote the headline for you. Think about it, that’s what you’re trying to sell this thing to. If I went and interviewed Alex Hanbury, one of our sales reps, for a product we’re building and he told me the biggest pain in the ass in my day is when I have to blank.

That’s the headline for landing page. Why would use something else? Why would you spin his words? He’s gonna be the buyer, use that. The hack is you can’t always do interviews. You’ve gotta get out of the building and talk to people. A hack that I would do all the time is I go to Cora or Reddit or Amazon or Product Hunt and I find related products to what I would have to write about and I would read the reviews. Let’s say I’m writing a new book about iPhones. I would go to Amazon and find other books about iPhones and see what the reviewers said. I love this book because it’s all about blah, blah, blah, boom. You just wrote exactly what I want to steal for this. Product Hunt, thousand PM at Drift, I would go on Product Hunt or whatever other sites there are and go find related products and go see not what the marketers of the company wrote, but what did the commentors say and use that. Hey this is a sales rep at X company who said, man this is gonna change my day because now I can blank.

Maggie: Go find your customers. Find what they’re talking about and what words they’re using and steal that for your own copy.

DG: Exactly.

Maggie: Not just for the press release or the one pager or whatever, but actually in the product for the copy.

DG: Yeah, because you gotta get inside of the head of the people that you’re building for. I would … I know nothing. Again I know nothing about product management and building products, but I would want the engineers who are actually gonna write code to this thing for this thing, feel the real words of somebody. You’re not gonna be able to go out and do 50 interviews. I think that’s bad advice. Go out and interview 50 people. That’s impossible.

Maggie: Five.

DG: It’s 2019 soon, it’s 2018. Whoa.

Maggie: [crosstalk 00:11:18] future.

DG: It’s 2019, I know, this week is just all 2019 planning.

Maggie: Yeah, just for doing that.

DG: I’m ready for 2019 to be over. My mind is 2019 right now, but you can get all that information somewhere else. Another thing is YouTube is amazing. Every product on every idea in the world has already been invented. You can go to YouTube and watch reviews. YouTube, think about who’s on YouTube. It’s a lot of self publishers or this is Mary, she’s a blogger and she reviews Nike’s. Amazing because then she’s gonna tell me all the things.

Maggie: Right.

DG: One little hack, there’s this one particular thing that we launch at Drift is our scheduling functionality. I went and I watched YouTube videos of all of our competitors and figured out not what they’re marketing people said. What hey, I’m Bob and today I’m gonna review blank. I want to hear what that guy says. I want to use his words and then really quickly you can pick up on two to three things. The keys are really say what you mean, simplify and all that stuff, but then also you have to go and do your research. Go dig. This is why I’m obsessed with keeping this swipe file and reading books and everything because all this stuff is already in there. Some of the best lines we’ve used at Drift are in other copy or whatever. We didn’t invent them. We found them. Our sales force wrote this in 1999, but now we have the modern version of it, so we wrote it like X.

Maggie: I think that the concept at the point files not something that I think we traditionally do in products, but I don’t … now that I’m thinking about it, I have no idea why we don’t do that.

DG: I would especially in product. It’s almost easier because marketing is like my swipe file is awesome, but it’s also a mess because there’s I got ads, I got events, I got emails, I got landing pages, I got tweets, I got books whereas usually product manager of a certain thing. I would go find everybody in that area, swipe all their landing pages, swipe all their emails, sign up for their onboard influence. Swipe all that. Then when you get to do it your turn, you’ve already soaked in all that knowledge. It also helps you learn quicker.

Maggie: Yeah, absolutely.

DG: The best marketers are the people that can learn the fastest because you’re out there and you’re able to just consume all this information. Subconsciously then when you go to write and go to create the doc for your new thing, you know it.

Maggie: Right. If they’ve already done the research, you can just steal their research.

DG: Yeah.

Maggie: Absolutely. We have the advice. What’s two books that’s gonna make us better copywriters?

DG: Two. Can we before we go into books, we need to talk about how to tell a story.

Maggie: Oh yeah.

DG: Getting it’s really important. If we just talk about writing, but I think not enough people think about the art of writing a story. It doesn’t have to be hard. I used to not be good at public speaking because I had no framework.

Maggie: Right.

DG: I would just get up there and just here’s my talk. Blah. There’s a really simple framework that I stole from a bunch of Steve Jobs stuff in books and it goes like this. Now everything that I write whether it’s a deck or a landing page, I write it like this. Number one is tell a story and you tell a story because nobody wants to just jump right in. Tell a story to hook somebody and it could be a related story. It can be like so the other day I’m walking down the street and blank. You gotta tell a story to hook somebody and your stories internally could be like remember how Aleyas told the company blank? That’s why I write that connection, to tell a story, pose a problem, state the solution, show examples and then have a CTA. That’s five things. Tell a story, pose a problem state the solution, show examples, CTA.

That formula works every single time because you tell a story to disarm people and you be real and you hook them with a story. Every movie starts with a scene that doesn’t really have to do with the longer movie, but it’s just something that gets you. Now you’re hooked. Once you’re hooked, you pose the problem that’s related to the story. Then you show the solution. Then you show examples to be like this is not just bullshit, here’s exactly how we can do this. They had a customer that said this, boom, boom, boom. Then the call to action. Obviously you don’t always need a call to action in your stuff, but that framework-

Maggie: Yeah. This is exactly the framework that I think a well thought out feature has because there’s a back story to it. There’s the core problem that you’re solving. There’s your solution that you come up with. There’s examples of how you’re gonna use, how your customers are gonna use it and then there’s what’s next.

DG: Yep. There’s a lot. I love this topic as you can tell.

Maggie: Yeah, [crosstalk 00:15:27].

DG: Books. What books?

Maggie: Give us some books.

DG: Before I just give out books though, I think you can’t just read a book for the sake of reading a book. I could never get on to reading because I just didn’t like what I was reading about.

Maggie: We couldn’t be more different. I love reading.

DG: What, you love reading? Really?

Maggie: I read all the time. Any book, it doesn’t matter.

DG:  That’s amazing. Still?

Maggie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

DG: Do you watch TV?

Maggie: Not really.

DG: Now that I have this stupid iPhone update and it tells me how much time I spend on my phone, it’s so sad. Yesterday I spent three hours on my phone. That’s what it says. Three hours.

Maggie: When you’re holding it and touching it right now.

DG: Three hours.

Maggie:  Yeah.

DG: Do you know what I could have gotten done in three hours?

Maggie:  A lot.

DG:  A lot. I need to read more. I don’t just read anything for fun because we’re different in that way. I read for a specific reason.

Maggie: I want to know what for the products community, what’s the best book. You’re gonna help us with this topic.

DG: I would say if you want to study copywriting, get Ogilvy on Advertising because it’s a great mix of copywriting and it’s also super visual and there’s a lot of ads and they’re very old. There’s some naked women in there and stuff. It’s like very … very old school. I don’t know why that’s important, but just like …

Maggie: Yeah, why that came up.

DG: Yeah, it’s one of those books like an art book, like it’s supposed to be art. I don’t understand. There’s a bunch weird ads. If you read to much into it, being like this is not useful, but if you take it for at the time, these are ads that they ran to sell cologne or to sell soup. These people had to literally send you something in the mail. This was written in the 1960s when there was no online marketing. Marketing was hard, much harder.

Maggie: Right.

DG: I had to convince you via the newspaper why you should buy something. You had to cut it out, put it in the mail, send it to me, then I send it back to you. It’s crazy. Ogilvy on Advertising is some timeless lessons about copywriting and direct mail and advertising in there. The second one, I’ll give you this one. It’s called Cashvertising. It sounds really corny in a catchy, dumb title, but it’s basically tips so the whole book you can fly through it. It’s like 101 lessons basically and it’s right, short, choppy, copy and it’s just gonna basically break all the things that you’ve learned about traditional writing. The only goal of this sentence is to get you to read the next one. That’s why all my writing is very short and very choppy and not formal because the goal is just to get you all to … it’s like a puzzle or like a stage is.

The only reason the headline exists is to get you to read the first line of my article.

Maggie: Which is gonna get you to the next line.

DG: All the way, boom, boom, boom, CTA.

Maggie: Yep.

DG: There’s a lot of stuff like that.

Maggie: Okay.

DG: If you can survive the naked pictures in Ogilvy on Advertising, you will become a great copywriter.

Maggie: Okay. What about story telling?

DG: What about story telling. Oh man. There’s so many story telling. One thing is I now think of movies a lot and if you really think about a movie, thinking about the story arc of a movie, there’s always an arc in there. There’s a great one by Steven Pressfield called Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit which is a phenomenal book-

Maggie: You should retitle it No One Wants to Use Your Shitty Products.

DG: You would love this. It’s the same concept which is like just because you did it, nobody gives a fuck about it.

Maggie: Yeah.

DG: Excuse me, sorry. It’s amazing because it trains your brain to think he used to be an ad agency guy and his whole model was clients would come to him with their baby. It’s the best thing ever. His job would be like no it’s not. Tell it from this angle. I think when you can go into that world especially in the products, you’re gonna be better.

Maggie: Yeah.

DG: Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit. Man, I’m trying to think if I should give this one away. This one is a little bit of a secret. I would just go watch, don’t read a book, go watch … take any Steve Jobs keynote and you’ll see very clear there’s a story structure. There’s a reason he does it. He does things in a way, the rule of three. We’ve talked about that here. Everything is always three. People are just wired to remember three things. Go back and watch 2010 iPad keynote, 2007 iPhone keynote. Watch all that stuff and that’s what I watched to learn and I can watch it over and over and over again because you’re gonna learn something new every time.

Maggie: Yeah, it’s amazing to me that the rule of three is something that you came at from that angle whereas from my background, all of my consultant friends, rule of three is all of my consultants out there. Every single presentation is three.

DG: Consultant. Really?

Maggie: Yeah. Three points, always.

DG: Obviously the consultants and the crazy marketing people who live in the hills had the same …

Maggie: Same thing.

DG: What’s the hardest part about story telling in product though? Why don’t more people do this?

Maggie: Yeah, I think a couple things. One, people leave copy til the end. They focus on the design or the technical aspects and they don’t think about the words that they’re using.

DG: That’s like headlines. We’re obsessed with headline writing and most people will go and spend, like take a content writer. They’ll go and spend four hours and write three thousand words and then go … and that’s the title. It’s like the other way and we would talk about what we just said earlier which is the job of the headline is to get you to the next line. Nobody’s gonna read your three thousand word article if you don’t hook them with the headline. It’s the same thing.

Maggie: They don’t start with copy and then I think unless you’re working on a product that feels like a full experience, it probably feels awkward or hard to think about the narrative of your individual feature if you’re not working on a whole end to end flow. I think at the same time if you’re solving a problem, in and of itself a problem has a story around it and there’s probably a way you can do it.

DG: Do you think … is it ever like because I’m sure sometimes you have to write a one pager for something that’s a little bug fix or an update and I could see how that’s hard to be story, problem, solution, examples.

Maggie: Yeah, yeah.

DG: I get that.

Maggie: I think it’s actually even for those products, it’s just as important. Even maybe more so to tie that back to the story that you’re telling across all of the things that you’re working on because if you’re only ever just looking at these little tiny things and it’s like ugh, this sucks. We’re just building these little tiny things, but if you understand why this little tiny bug you’re fixing is gonna enable that incredible headline that you wrote, that’s how you get motivated.

DG: Right, so you make that your story as this is a bug fix because it’s part of a bigger piece as opposed to this thing on-

Maggie: Yeah, and as a product manager you need to be able to tell that bigger story because if you can’t tell that then …

DG: Ooh. Okay, this is perfect. This is why you need to go read Cashvertising because there’s a great line in Cashvertising where … he basically wrote a million copywriting books and then wrote this book so it’s probably from somebody else, but maybe this is where we can end. People want holes, not shovels. There’s two ways to sell a shovel. You could say this thing is four feet long, it has a lovely aluminum handle and a plastic top and it’s gonna help you move the snow out of your driveway. No, people want, I’m gonna sell you something that in 30 minutes is gonna make the snow disappear from your driveway. I want that.

Maggie: Yeah, definitely.

DG: That’s a shovel. Okay, great. That is such a good lesson in the product marketing, product management world. People want holes, not shovels so when you’re writing your one pager, how can you show the hole and the hole in the lawn or the snow out of the driveway.

Maggie: The outcome. You called the outcome.

DG: The outcome, the outcome.

Maggie: Yep.

DG: Holes, not shovels is like say what you mean. The outcome is like-

Maggie: The outcome is like product management.

DG: Turn to page 87 to see the outcome. I love that. That’s a hard one. It’s a hard one. The other thing he says is you need to be the spinach for Popeye. The person that you’re trying to get to use this is Popeye and your thing is gonna be spinach. What happens when Popeye eats spinach? That’s your superpower.

Maggie: That’s awesome.

DG: Yeah.

Maggie: Thank you.

DG: How has it been being a podcast host?

Maggie: It’s really stressful.

DG: Do you like it? It’s stressful? That’s not stressful. Get out of here. This is the easiest part of work every day. You just come in and you talk. Maybe not.

Maggie: Yeah, I don’t know. I want to make sure that these things that we talk about are useful and that people are getting value out of it and I think … I try to keep the bar pretty high and I don’t want to just waste anyone’s’ time on something that, you know. It easy to sit down and record something. It’s not easy to sit down and record something that’s super valuable.

DG: True, that’s a good point. There’s more noise than ever today so if you can be valuable.

Maggie: Yeah.

DG: Yeah. What do you want to do with this podcast in the future? You told me less guests.

Maggie: I did, yeah. There’s so many podcasts where you just hear people talking to each other.

DG: Sorry.

Maggie: Excuse me.

DG: I said sorry about that. Why do you need my [crosstalk 00:23:22] like some wisdom.

Maggie: Let’s talk to each other about … yeah. Where it’s oh this is really great. We’re talking about this topic and this is the five keys to whatever and you should do it this way. How does the person who’s actually doing the job do that? How do you go about your desk and sit down and write that headline or whatever it is? I think for product, it’s a nebulous job to start with so then when someone’s saying use more data. What does that look like? I want to bring more of the this is what I actually did to work on that type of thing.

DG: Tactical. People love the tactical.

Maggie: Yeah.

DG: I think one of the things I got to a lot of conferences and listen to bullshit. Most valuable stuff I found lately is when I’m sitting around five other people who are doing the same thing I’m doing. It’s almost like therapy like oh my God, you’re all going through this too. If that’s what your podcast is, that’s really cool.

Maggie: I think it’s relatively hard to find for product.

DG: Build. You heard it here first. Go to Build.com, no we don’t have that I don’t think.

Maggie: I don’t think so, build.com.

DG: All right. Make sure you leave Maggie a six star review please only. Do you get six star, do you ask for six star reviews?

Maggie: I do. Yeah, I ask for them because I want more shout outs than you.

DG: I don’t get any shout outs anymore.

Maggie: I don’t see the reviews so I don’t know if we have any.

DG: You don’t. They go into notify in slack. Okay. All right. Leave Maggie a review if you would like me to come back on Maggies’ show. Nah, I’m one time only.

Maggie: Okay.

DG: It’s not about me. Thanks for having me. You’re doing an awesome job with this podcast.

Maggie: Appreciate it.

DG: Product managers, keep building, keep doing stuff on git hub and whatever you all do out there. All right. See you.

Maggie: See you.