In this episode, hear why every brand is in the business of owning and leading a category in some way. We talk to Optimizely’s CMO and their director of product marketing to understand how the company has successfully created and led their category, and we walk away with a few key pieces we can implement to do the same.
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Full Transcript
Jay Acunzo: We are all in the business of owning a category. Some people create and claim a big, broad category. The company that co-produces and co-owns this series with me, Drift, has created conversational marketing. And sure, elements of it already existed long before Drift. And yes, others will and have already started to make their own interpretation, own mark on this movement, but Drift is leading and owning it in ways that others never expected or never could. So, how does that stuff work? Well, that’s what we explore today.
Remember, you might not have that big broad category like say, a Drift, but everybody is in the business of owning a category in some way. Maybe yours is smaller, it’s your specific angle on a popular topic, your unique point of view, or conceit, or mission. I mean, this is a podcast about B2B marketing. The one you’re listening to right now. Do you know how many podcasts exist about B2B marketing? Turns out, marketers are pretty good at marketing marketing knowledge to other marketers using marketing podcasts. And I’m doing the same thing here.
But, unlike every other show, this is Exceptions, the show about why brand matters more than ever in B2B. Each episode, we go inside one of the top B2B companies in the world to understand how and why they’re becoming the exception in their niche by betting on brand. See, that’s the category I’m trying to create for this show. It’s owned, it’s named, it’s unique, it’s an exception in some meta way. And I’m thinking of this show like a category.
And I’m thinking about this idea of a category, not just because of the show or Drift, but because of the company we talked to today, Optimizely. Founded in 2010 and later graduated out of the famous startup incubator Y Combinator, Optimizely is an experimentation platform. The San Francisco-based firm helps marketers and product teams deploy tests onto a digital experience like a website or a software tool so you can test, learn, and grow.
According to their company site the teams believes, “The most successful businesses aren’t the ones with all the answers. They’re the ones that keep asking the big questions.” Many people who know Optimizely in marketing, know about their ability to help you launch AB tests, which color button generates more clicks, that sort of thing. But, today, they’ve expanded to address a more sophisticated need in the marketplace, targeting enterprise clients who experiment in much more complicated ways.
To do that, they’ve decided to carve out a category that they’re naming and seeking to lead. And we’ll get to that a little bit later. But first, let’s start with the one thing that every exception has in common They are customer-centric. So, naturally, we need to hear from the voice of a natural customer.
Matt Bivons is a VP of Marketing at GreenSky.
Matt Bivons: How can we get more people to sign up in our funnel? How can we get more people to accept their loans? How can we get more people to search for our merchants? How can we get more people within this particular area or category to spend? And all of these things are micro experiments that Optimizely allows us to facilitate that compound over time. Growth and growing startup businesses is about building compound interest. There’s no silver bullet.
Jay: So why does digital optimization matter in your line of work? [crosstalk]
Matt: There’s no one big win. So I think where a traditional marketer may spend months and months and months making a campaign and hoping to take a very big swing, growth and relying on experimentation within the product is about failing fast, getting the data, getting feedback loops from your customers, and then implementing the next thing. That’s how a lot of traditional companies have grown is they’ve gone out to the market, they’ve gotten a lot of customer research, and then they’ve used maybe some gut and intuition, and then they hope that things are gonna be successful at the point that they launched it into production.
And I very much believe that hope is not a strategy, and Optimizely really is a sandbox for failure. It allows you as an entrepreneur, as an operator to validate your hypotheses and to understand very quickly if something’s working or not, and then ultimately, those are the things that fuel long term sustainable growth.
Jay: I think it’s really nice to say, “Oh, we reward failure, and you can go ahead and fail on this and learn,” but I think what some people hear at some companies are, “Hey, it doesn’t matter if this works, but also this has to work,” you know? So how do we avoid that issue?
Matt: You have to have a way of communicating this internally. So don’t allow growth or experimentation to live in some isolated part of the company. Allow this to be elevated, and repeat yourself. I’m constantly repeating myself sending out communication to other executives, other teams, to talk about the wins and talk about the losses, and so it’s very humbling to say that you have enough confidence in what you’re doing to talk about all your failures. Nobody wants to hear about all the wins. You want to be very transparent and honest that this is really really difficult and that- but when you do win, you’re able to directly tie that to the bottom line to growing your profit.
Jay: Do you have an example of that communication? Is it like you have a weekly email divided up into three sections? Or can you give me an example?
Matt: Yeah, absolutely. So, yes. It’s a weekly email. We break it into different sections of the funnel. Depending on where experiments are running, maybe it’s at the very top of the funnel and you’re looking to acquire more customers. Maybe it’s in the middle of the funnel where you’re really trying to engage and convert customers to paying users, or maybe you’re trying to retain individuals post someone actually working with your company. So at every single stage, you should be thinking about the experiments that you’re running and how you can actually translate that into communication to all team members that they know, number one, what’s actually happening with the product? You don’t wanna be running an experiment and surprise somebody and say, “Hey, I thought it was supposed to be this way, and we’re running an experiment, and it looks completely different.”
And then number two, you wanna be always thinking about things downstream. So I think very early teams do a lot of lightweight testing, and that might be fine to get people thinking and the dialogue going and to start a culture of experimentation, but ultimately, that actually wastes a lot of time as well. So not experimenting, but also experimenting on the wrong stuff are things that you need to be mindful of, but not every team can take a big swing from day one, so you have to kind of build up towards that. But I think it’s a lot about both. How many home runs have we hit, but also how many times have we been on base?
And so you think about your slugging average, not just your batting average, around what the impact to the test that you’re running is to the company in the bottom line. And you shouldn’t just, again, hold this to your chest and be so precious about it that this is only for the growth team or for the marketers. You should be an evangelist within your company, talk and collaborate with people in operations or people on the credit or risk side if you’re in a financial technology company, and allow them to understand that experiencing is helping to move the business forward.
Jay: Experimenting is helping every business today, which is why Optimizely is used not just by Matt at Green Sky but thousands of companies and 24 of the Fortune 100. Over the last year, the brand has decided to name and lead their category, but before we dive into how that works, we first need to know why they’re choosing this category of digital optimization. It has to do with this mental shift that’s required of all marketers to run successful experiments. And that brings us to today’s big idea.
Do you wanna be right or get it right? Imagine this: you’re sitting in a board room full of powerful people at your company, and they’re asking you, “Should we be on Facebook or Twitter? And if so, what should we post to each channel?”
Now obviously, it’s not enough for you to just give your opinion. You wanna make sure that whatever you roll out to the world works, but they’re asking for your opinion. In that scenario, they’re asking you to be right. Way too often in marketing today, that’s what we care about. We care about the theory, the trend, the best practice. What is the best channel to drive leads in B2B this year? What is the best time to post on Twitter? Which social network should we choose? There’s so many tactics that we can choose from as marketers, and there’s so much advice around those tactics that suddenly, we’re in the business of trying to be right in theory.
But what matters isn’t that we’re right in theory. What matters is that we’re right in reality. In other words, we don’t need to be right. We need to get it right. Far better for us is to say, “You know what? I don’t have all the answers, but I have something more powerful. I have a way to figure it out.”
That, to me, is the difference between a brand that grows and thrives in this digital age and one that stagnates. It’s the difference between needing to be right in theory and being willing to say, “Nobody has all the answers, including me, no matter what my title is. I don’t have all the answers, but I know how to figure it out.”
So ask yourself, would you rather be right or get it right?
So how does that work anyway? If we wanted to, say, create a category, and we wanna get it right, we don’t wanna just have it in theory in our heads, what are the component pieces that we need to create and roll out to the world? For the rest of this episode, that’s what I’d like to break down. It’s not a prescription, by the way, but rather some raw materials that you might consider if you wanna build and lead a named category. And so to help us figure that out, I wanted to talk to this guy.
Carl Tsukahara: My name is Carl Tsukahara. I’m the Chief Marketing Officer here at Optimizely, and that means I run the global marketing operation both in the U.S. and internationally and also run the sales development team.
Jay: I asked Carl where this idea of digital experience optimization applies and where Optimizely helps with that specifically.
Carl: Sure. I think when you think about our products, we’re really in the business of doing something pretty simple, and the simple thing is every way that you touch your customer in the digital domain, so whether that’s over a website, over a single page app, over a mobile device, over an IOT device, and if you’re in media, maybe it’s an over the top device for streaming TV. We allow organizations to really test different ways or different experiences that they might roll out, do that in a controlled way, really learn from those with extremely high statistical confidence what will work.
Jay: It’s Carl’s belief that the time is now for their brand to own and lead a category, and the first place they began naturally is by talking to customers. There are no silver bullets in business, but man, isn’t talking to customers just about the closest damn thing we’ve got?
Carl: You know, we’ve really been able to define and start to make it prevalent of the whole value of experience and why- even if you think about mega trends, so mega trends in the market- I would think of things like direct to consumer, right? I would think of things like subscription economy. I would think of things like really digital transformation, but thinking at that about the customer in versus internal process orientation. If you think about those things, what sits in the middle of all those elements is the consumer’s experience or the customer’s experience, whether you’re in a B2B business or a B2C business. And I’d say the big project and big think idea that we’ve put together is how do we really communicate that to people that are in marketing, in the digital parts of the business, in the merchandising side that own various portions of that interaction and let them know that there’s a way to, as I mentioned earlier, to get this right.
Jay: Now, Carl and his team didn’t talk to just any old customers. That’s not the first building block to create a movement, to create a category. I think it’s paramount that instead, we talk to the customers that adore us. We should ask them, why do they feel that way anyway? What value are we delivering? What magic have they seen despite it not currently being a whole category or at least a named category that we’re leading? What is already happening in the world that we’re trying to own and direct our way? Because the first step, I think, to building a new category is to partner with early, true believers.
True believers are those who already believe what you believe and don’t need a lengthy explanation. You’re not trying to win over the entire world. You’re just trying to inspire your true believers. You’re not growing demand so much as rallying the people who already believe in what you’re doing. So wanna create a category? Here’s a building block. Talk to your true believers. In the end, they provide valuable feedback, but they can also help you find more. Then, a second building block emerged when I talked to Carl. That’s the need to create consistent language around your category. As for how, well, we need to name the category and teach the process. We have to name it and teach it. A named category and a teachable process provides consistent language. Here’s how Carl and his team thought about this part.
Carl: I think the first real big outbound activity or the one that I think was interesting is if you kind of research what’s going on with, I would say, well-known thought leaders from the analyst community, so that includes the likes of Forrester Research from Gardner, from McKenzie, from Harvard Business School. They were all talking about this concept but using different language to describe it, and so I’d say our first big thing that we did is we really started to attach, and really I can spend a lot of time and strategy discussions with analysts and some of these folks and really tried to bring all of that vernacular together, because sometimes there’s concepts that are out there, but they’re not consistently described.
Obviously, we do our own experimentation internally, but what we really built together is really the narrative. So for instance, we did a lot of promotional work with the Harvard Business School, and obviously, you’re talking about some of the greatest strategists in the world from a business strategy perspective. We worked very closely with them to do webinars, to do blog posts, to do really promotion of some of the work that they had done side-by-side with us, because I think in a lot of these cases, even take Forrester- there’s a phenomenal analyst over there named James McCormick, and so we worked closely with James on really- his interest is to think categorically about how this is growing, and our point of view was to show people how, because nobody wants to be the next company retailer or travel company or high tech company that going out of business because they can’t properly serve their customer in the digital domain.
So we really worked with those other voices and kinda partnered together with them, so we did webinars. We did promotion of their content with ours. We did some road show stuff with some of those various folks and really talked about how their vision and our pragmatism of bringing this to life really brought not only the products and the technology but the expertise to really help customers who wanted to make this journey, how we could bring them forward.
Jay: When you think about that collaborative effort, what is Optimizely’s place in that? I could see another brand that thinks more skeptically, and I don’t think this is healthy, but things like, “Well, if I bring in other organizations this soon and we try to rally the world around this idea, it’s gonna muddy the waters. We won’t be front and center.”
Obviously, you didn’t think that way, so what did you see as the benefit of partnering with them that actually does advance the Optimizely cause?
Carl: Yeah, I think the big benefit is they … Harvard Business School, my God. This is an incredibly well-respected organization. I think as a company at our scale, Jay, I think just kind of making sure that as long as we were aligned on the vision of what we’re trying to do in this space that we had some other credibility points, and so I’d say that: working with some of these entities. But also, we have great customers that were willing to go on record with us. People like Sky TV or … Uber presented at our customer conference. IBM. You have some really great brands who had kinda made this transformational leap with us, and so kind of this combination of what I would call advocacy marketing where we’re really using social proof of what we’re doing with some of the greatest brands in the world in conjunction with these third party who look at it from more of a categorical perspective, so try to really try to bring those two things together.
One that would say, categorically, this is a huge trend that impacts these other digital mega trends that are going on in the business or in the industry, but also the pragmatism of customers. So the Wall Street Journal showed that they improved their acquisition by 65 million dollars a year. There’s some great use cases that validate the value of experimentation and digital experience optimization, but really creating that broad base customer social proof together with a mega trend’s view from some of these luminaries in the industry. I think that was the key: doing both the bottom-up, if you will, from a customer advocacy process, and the top-down by having some categorical fronts.
Jay: So wanna create a category? Here’s a few building blocks we’ve uncovered so far. The first one, again, identify your true believers by talking to your customers first, and then when you think there’s this proverbial there there, give it a consistent language. How? Well, there are two things that require that consistent language and two ways to spread that language into the world. The two things to give consistent language are first, the name of your category, and second, the approach, the philosophy, the methodology. As for the name, for Optimizely, digital experience optimization had already existed, but they were trying to codify it. For Drift, the brand that co-produces this show with me, they created this phrase: conversational marketing.
But not everything has to be invented. Again, I don’t think Optimizely did that. Price Intelligently, a brand that we profiled in season one, is trying to own and lead the category of subscription analytics, which already existed before they built their product or brand, but when they create, say, their short-form daily video series, they decided to call it “Subscription 60,” and you can tell why a name like that mattered to their category. You can keep niching down, too. B2B branding isn’t a category that this show professes to lead, but the one we’d like to lead is B2B brand podcasting or maybe B2B brand shows.
So when providing consistent language, we need a consistent name. We also need a consistent approach. That has to have the same language, too. The ways we teach the methodology and describe it to others has to have the same language over time. So, Carl at Optimizely partnered with HBS, Harvard Business School, and other partner organizations to create things like webinar series and e-books among other projects.
Okay. So those are the two things that we need consistent language around. The name of the category and the methodology or process underpinning that category. Maybe you call that your philosophy. As for the two ways to spread that language into the world, Carl mentioned them before. Top-down and bottom-up. Top-down means partnering with organizations and or focusing your own marketing or showing the world through your actions that, “Hey, something big is happening, and it will get even bigger soon.”
This is the stuff that you and partner organizations can lead. Thought leadership. Bottom-up means finding specific examples of proof that others are already doing this. It’s happening on the front lines right now. So, Optimizely wanted to create a category, and first they found true believers. Second, they gave it a name or at least decided to own that name and gave the philosophy consistent language, too, and third, they used both top-down thought leadership and bottom-up case studies and research to spread that language into the world.
From here on, I wanna be clear. I’m not sure there’s a correct order to the building blocks. Arguably, this stuff I just mentioned was in some kind of chronological order, but from here, it’s a lot messier, but I still wanna go through some additional building blocks to naming and owning a category, but before we do that, let’s just reset really quickly and remember why owning a category matters to a brand. I don’t wanna get too lost in the weeds here. See, owning a category is all about the shift. Something has changed, and that’s why you’re naming it, owning it, giving it a consistent language and disseminating it through the world. Something has changed, and that necessitates a better way.
Here’s Carl’s take on that.
Carl: You always have in a category different segments of customers or different segments of companies, whether they’re the early adopters or the majority, late majority or the laggards, right? So, you do find legacy thinking … or you find people who are just creeping along like we … the way I think experimentation or experience optimization works is you get some quick wins, and then you kinda whim by, increasing scale and doing this in a larger and larger fashion. I think what hurts companies is getting started. I would urge anyone listening to this or any major brand that we have in the world, get started, because when you think about creating this competency, there is a reason why Netflix is really a powerful company in media. There is a reason why Amazon is running rough shot over several segments.
If you kind of read between the lines of whatever Reed Hastings or Jeff Bezos says on the public record, a lot of it is because they have this mentality of democratizing ideation and really letting the data and evidence speak for what you should do, and it’s not always the HiPPO culture where, you know, “I’m the big creative director, and I’m gonna-”
Those days, I think, are still gonna be there, but the whole point is you can actually move much faster if you’re just willing to try ideation. Get it out there. Again, get it out there with low risk. If you’re a large retailer or e-commerce company or travel company or whatever the case may be, you can really test these ideas against a very small sample of your population, and then you can get the results, but then you’ll know. You’ll know. So, just this whole cultural shift of, you know, Hey, look – It’s not the highest-paid person’s opinion that matters. It’s really about the data and the evidence, the statistical certainty about this, and that can be a mind shift.
Jay: For Carl, for any of us, none of this stuff matters. The category ownership, the language, the embrace of an urgent shift. None of it matters unless we hire the right people, and that is the next building block. Sure, talk to true believers. Form a consistent language. Spread it through top-down and bottom-up approaches, but whatever you do, just make sure you use the category as a filter through which every new hire candidate has to pass to join the business.
Carl: I think it starts with the hiring. We try to hire people that actually believe in what we’re doing. We’re trying to really apply what I would call the scientific method or proactive data-driven decision making as a business practice. People can say, “Oh, we use analytics and stuff,” and that’s fine, and nothing- I was in the analytics business for a long time, but we’re kind of complimenting that with really a forward-looking view that’s evidence based, and how do you get the right answer?
Jay: Now.
Carl: And so we really try and start in the beginning. So when you talk about convincing my team to really think dramatically or think in a way that it’s not always the highest-paid person’s opinion that matters. It starts right at the beginning, and so people have to understand that we typically try at this point to hire parts of both the marketing, sales team, sales development team, whatever the case may be, that believe in this practice.
Jay: One such person that the team has hired is Robin Pam, their Director of Product Marketing.
Robin Pam: I think the biggest misconception about product marketing is that you spend your day writing messaging, and I would say that most of product marketing is really about ensuring that everyone across the company is actually using the messaging, using the things that you do. A lot of my time is really spent building relationships to make sure that everyone is actually saying the same thing at the same time in the right way.
Jay: Pam seems like a natural fit both for the brand and their desire to lead this category.
Robin Pam: I’ve always been a bit of an optimizer in my life. I’m always looking for the best way to do something to shave a few seconds off of whatever I’m doing or get to work a few minutes faster on my commute, but the thing that I always think about when it comes to A/B testing is lines. It drives me crazy to see inefficient lines when you’re standing in a line at the grocery store and one of the ones next to you is going faster. I really wish that someone would- that we could run A/B tests in all of these stores that the people working in the stores would actually run A/B tests on how to get people through their lines as quickly as possible.
Robin: Maybe someone’s already done that. I actually read up a little bit on queuing theory, so I’ve thought about the most efficient way to get people through lines. But I wish that all of these stores that have very inefficient lines would actually use data to make lines go faster.
Jay: Oh my gosh. So all the thinking and theorizing you’ve been doing, what do you think is a better way?
Robin: The way that works best is to have one line that feeds into every checkout.
Jay: Why?
Robin: There’s actually a mathematical explanation for it that I am not qualified to [crosstalk 00:25:57], but it has something to do with the fact that when everyone is in different lines- if you’re standing in one line, and there’s five different lines there that you could possibly choose from, you have a twenty percent chance of choosing the slowest line. And if you’re standing in that line, you have a twenty percent chance of choosing the slowest line. You have a fifty percent chance of choosing a line that is slower than the median, so it’s actually like any given line that you’re standing in has a pretty high probability of not being the fastest line, so if you have everybody in one line, and you’re just funneling people one-by-one to all of the checkouts, everybody gets through the line much faster, so the Marshall’s and Ross model is much more effective than the grocery store model with all of the different checkout lines.
Jay: This is amazing, and I’ll never look at a checkout line ever again the same way. That’s incredible.
Robin: A pet thing that I think about as a classic optimization problem.
Jay: What do you think if you were brought into an event to try and help marketers get better at testing and experimentation and optimization, what do you think are some of the classic mistakes that people make when they approach this stuff?
Robin: Yeah. I think the first mistake people make is, especially in a B2B company like ours, the first mistake people make is saying, “We don’t have enough traffic. We don’t have enough data points to actually make decisions based on data.”
We hear that a lot actually from other companies that are a lot like us. What we often tell them is that anyone can use data to make decisions. A/B testing is one of the many methods you can use to do that, and when you’re running an A/B test on a small amount of traffic, you’re probably gonna wanna test much larger changes. Things like testing a button color or an image probably might not be the things that are gonna make a big difference, but you actually need to run very large changes in order to see large impacts in your data.
Jay: As we push on uncovering these building blocks to create a category, another one surfaced, one that both Pam and Carl have had a hand in leading: customer success. We’ve talked about consistent language and sharing that language, but a huge component of category leaders who espouse a given philosophy is their focus on ensuring that anybody who’s adopting that philosophy finds success, and that goes well beyond just educational content.
Carl: One of the things that we do as a company is we have an extreme focus on either it’s what I would call education transformation or side-by-side assistance, so we have not only internal people but partners. When we do well, when we do the best is when there’s this sincere effort by the customer to make some changes, to really go to a test and learn culture and understand that that’s the key to winning in digital. So we surround that product with all kinds of ways that they get onboarded properly, have customer success assigned to them, they get educated right, we make sure we- we might even help them with things like how they should hire and build their team. How do they really build an experimentation strategy for the business? How do you set up a program based on your company’s structure? How do you get onboarded? What kinds of alignment should you have with your design team?
All these things are really part of our complete solution, because we have a maturity model, Jay, that kind of ranks customers on a scale from one to five, and when we take on a new piece of business, often we’ll give them an assessment saying, “Hey, look. Here’s where we think you are.” We’ve done this literally thousands of times. It’s not just the product, but how do we surround you with the right kinds of expertise and services, because frankly, I am a stern believer that we’re the number one company in the world with expertise in this area. And when you’re dealing with some of the big brands, that matters a lot, because … you hit it on the head a few minutes ago.
How do we help these companies get started but also help them build a cultural and a competency transformation in their business? Which could take years, frankly. It could take years. Let’s just face it. But we wanna be side-by-side with them, not just with the technology and new developments and capabilities, but also the set of services in customer success, technical consultation, business level consultation, strategy, and other areas. And this is where we work both with ourselves and with our partners to deliver that.
Robin: Good ideas can cm from anywhere. The Internet and digital experiences are really democratizing especially when you think about the way that companies operate today, the way that the speed of business happens, and when you think about putting something out there in the world, there’s really no reason that we have to be tied to these old-school ways of thinking about running a marketing campaign or launching a new product or launching a new feature that the old rules just don’t apply anymore.
Carl: It’s okay to test. One of the things that I think people have to realize is when you’re actually experimenting or testing, you’re not sending it to 100 percent of your traffic, right? You’re finding the right sample, and you mentioned personalization and profiling. The right answer isn’t always the same for every type of customer either. But we allow you to think about like, “I’m only gonna test this for my high net worth customers or my millennials or my retirees,” or whatever the case may be. But the whole point is you can test it and it actually takes the risk out of being wrong.
So it’s a little bit of converse thinking in a way. It doesn’t have to be right. You’re trying to be right, but you’re also trying not to be wrong in a really bad way, right? And if you don’t think about this whole thing of, “Oh, we gotta get it right.” Well, if you actually tested instead of rolling it out and guessing- we call it deploy and pray, right? “Oh, we think it’s right. We think it’s right. Oh, God. We did all this research. User testing. We think it’s right.”
Why not just roll this out to the right sample and determine if it’s right? And you just never know what kind of discoveries you’re gonna get.
Jay: There are so many ways to build your brand, but I believe done well, it almost always creates this feeling that you own and lead your category, because you aren’t creating yet another company like your competition. You’re creating the only. You’re building the exception.
Thanks, as always, to Drift for making this show possible. Drift is the leader in conversational marketing. That is their category, and they’ve literally written the book on it, and if you wanna hear how that kind of project works for a marketing team, how does a brand write a book? What are all the steps necessary that goes into it, both creating it and marketing it? If that’s interesting, go back one episode in your feed and listen to my special, behind-the-scenes chat with Drift’s VP of marketing, Dave Gerhardt.
And if you like this show, please leave us a six-star review. This is what Drift’s team has requested that I request of you. Apparently, that’s from all their other podcasts. They request six stars only, and hey, if a bunch of zombies can rise up from the frozen tundra, slay a dragon, raise that dragon into an ice dragon, tear down a magical wall thousands of feet high, anything is possible, including six stars. Game of Thrones is a documentary series, right?
Anyway, I’m Jay Acunzo, and I need to check my facts, and if you wanna explore more of my work, head over to my personal podcast, Unthinkable, where I tell stories of people who question conventional thinking to think for themselves at work. That’s Unthinkable in your podcast player. Thank you, again, for listening to this series. I’ll talk to you on the next episode in a couple weeks. See ya!