Dave: This is going down.
DC: We have a special impromptu-
DC: Look at that. You hear that speedy voice?
Dave: Yeah. See, he knows.
DC: That’s George B. Thomas there. What’s this other voice here?
Dave: Remington Begg
DC: Alright, we’ve got an impromptu Seeking Wisdom then, and we gathered some folks here, some troops for our last ever Seeking Wisdom in this studio.
Dave: It’s hard to hear the uncle say goodbye like that but…
DC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we’ve moving into a bigger, better studio.
Dave: We’ll be okay.
Dave: So if this is your first time with us, welcome. Welcome. We got a lot of first time listeners.
DC: That’s Dave Gerhart. DG. AKA The Young Nephew.
Dave: I’m DG, AKA The Nephew. That’s DC AKA The Uncle, which is funny because he calls himself the uncle, the old uncle, but if I say it then it becomes-
George: That’s no good. [crosstalk] only old people can say they’re old.
Dave: Yeah. We had somebody here once that asked, that thought, “Oh, DC, he’s the OG.” And somebody was like, “Yeah, he is an old guy.” They thought that OG was old guy.
George: You gotta be the original gangster, you can’t be the old guy, like come on.
Dave: So here’s the deal, we were gonna talk about some stuff on Seeking Wisdom like we always do and DC came up to me and was like, “We should have them on because they’re here.” So we’re gonna do the Seeking Wisdom we would normally do but you guys are with us.
Dave: Is that okay?
George: Yeah, absolutely, totally okay.
Dave: Let’s do it.
DC: It’s like when are we gonna have this chance again?
Remington: Yeah, so we’re like live audience members.
DC: A live audience member, you are the [crosstalk]
Dave: So I’m gonna put this book out here for a second. You know this book?
George: I want that book.
Dave: You want the book? (laughing)
George: I saw play bigger, and I’m like “Come On”
Dave: So, we’re gonna do a little hybrid book review/story today, because this all started with last week, AngelList sent out this email to 4.5 million people and they featured Drift in the newspaper, and it was talking about the rise of conversational marketing, so timely for us to all be talking today. And conversational marketing jobs have grown 450% in the last year, and so DC posted this, he saw this, he posted it on LinkedIn and I saw this out. This is what I do as great host of this show. I pull out things he says. I pull out things that DC says and then I say them back to him and then that turns into an episode. (laughing)
Alright, so he said that over a year ago we were sitting around at Drift trying to come up with a category name for the change we were enabling via real time sales conversations on your website. We settled on the name conversational marketing after much back and forth. I didn’t love the name at the time but it was the best way to describe the shift, so we went with it. Incredibly humbled to see the market adopt conversational marketing, and to see it take on a life of its own. The number of new jobs in conversational marketing has quadrupled in the last year. Amazing. Thanks for helping us to find this new category and shift in how businesses buy from businesses.
And then at the end he goes “PS”, which I didn’t know he was gonna do this, he goes “PS, a few months ago we officially signed on with a well known book publisher to write the book on conversational marketing.” Which I was like okay I guess we’re telling everybody. More details coming soon.
DC: It’s called the DC bomb. That’s known internally as the bomb.
Dave: So the category of conversational marketing, did you guys think this would be a thing? Like you guys have been in the marketing space. Did you think it was category ripe?
Remington: That’s why I have 44 tutorials already.
DC: Yeah, if you don’t know Remington, you know his tutorials.
Remington: So I saw, I actually had a conversation with George, but I looked at it and I went “okay this is great” We even saw Drift on our site. Craziness. And it was working so well I was like “This is nuts” We tried a couple other things, blew all of our metrics out of the water, and then I was like “Alright, we have to do something here” and I had actually asked the sales guys here about whether there’s a part in the program, and at that point there was not.
And you guys move quick.
Dave: DC told us to focus. (laughing)
Remington: But then I was like, “I gotta start doing this, because there’s huge opportunity” and so 44 …
DC: Tutorials later?
George: You know for me its funny because I heard the conversation around conversational marketing and thought “Oh, that’s clever” and then all of a sudden people started asking me about Drift, and I was like “Okay I should probably pay attention” and then the reason that I started to dive deeper is because I realized that you guys were fixing a problem that everybody thinks is already solved and it’s not, and the software does that.
DC: You hear that? The man is here.
Dave: That’s why I looked at you, I was like okay you gotta … yeah. We didn’t have a name for it, but you knew since the beginning, you wouldn’t have started a company without knowing…
Remington: We knew that there was a shift happening, the momentum happening in the way that people were expecting to buy and communicate was changing that had nothing to do at the time with sales and marketing the way we think about it and we just went “something has to change, we have no idea what’s gonna change” and it took some time to explore and figure out “How does it actually fit in this world,” right? Maybe it won’t look exactly the same, but who knows, it morphs. But you can have something where conversations and become a primary thing in the form of messaging happening to billions of people within a five year period and then have no effect on the rest of the business.
Dave: So I actually don’t wanna dive in deep on what is conversational marketing on this. I wanna talk more about the category, because what happened is when you posted that, you got a lot of comments of people saying “How did you guys come up with the category? Did you always know? Did you have the idea?” We spent two years basically figuring out the category. We created it, right? But I do remember this, from the early days you and I would always talk about what is the name? And if you go rewind all the way back in your marketing book history, right, the 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing, do you know what the number one law is?
Remington: Create your own category.
Dave: Yeah. The law of leadership it’s better to be first than it is to be better. And I think that’s the number one lesson I want people to take from this episode.
Conversational marketing of course that’s us, that’s what we’re doing, but the thought of going out and re-segmenting the market and creating a new category.
George: But the thing about that though, is not everybody will do that. Because they’re afraid. And so what I can tell by what you guys have been doing is that its like “we’re not afraid to fail, we’ll name it whatever we need to name it because we gotta get it out there because we have to solve the problem.” And there’s so many companies out there that are like “Well we’d like to do that, that’d be nice” but then they’re like “ah, but it’s comfortable, let’s stay in comfort”
Dave: That’s the second law, the second law is the law of the category which is if you can’t be first in the category, go and create your own.
DC: Yeah, and if you don’t recognize that voice, that’s George there, I’ve watched his videos for how many years have you been putting out videos? A long time
George: Four years.
DC: A long time. We’ll link it below. And we’ll link to Remington below. And we’ll link to all the stuff that they do below. But these guys are OG’s. Not old guys.
George: I’m in both categories. Like most people are like “Oh you’re 36” I’m actually 46.
DC: Oh, awesome.
DC: The OG side here. You wanna come out on age?
Dave: I have no idea. I don’t know.
Remington: I have, it’s like a ten year span.
Dave: I have a guess, but you say it.
Remington: Someone guess.
Remington: Nope, I’m gonna be 35 on the 20th.
DC: Wow! Young guy.
Dave: That’s good.
DC: How old are you?
DC: You gotta step up.
Dave: Yeah I better go.
DC: Look at Remington.
Dave: I better run more hair faster.
Remington: Burn #2 on the show.
DC: No, that’s awesome
Dave: No I meant myself. I’m already there.
DC: He’s got so much hair. We’re all hair challenged here, except for George. You mentioned that post from last week and then you brought out this little book here that we’re gonna give to George here, it’s called “Play Bigger” cause George is about playing bigger. And this was a book that I kind of gave to a bunch of people here, I read it a long time ago.
Dave: You gave a bunch of copies but then shout out to Pat Grady at Sequoia, after they invested in our series B, he sent us a box of these books.
DC: Yes and on the back you see Jim Getz, Sequoia partner here. Anyway, the reason that this is relevant we were reading this book and thinking about this at the very beginning. And this is a book on creating categories. And Christopher, author here chimed in on that blog post on LinkedIn. It’s amazing.
Dave: It said “Congratulations on creating the category, we have to tell the stories”
DC: And then he said “but now”
Dave: [crosstalk] Full circle.
DC: “you’ve gotta become the category killer, you gotta kill the category, you gotta own the category. So that’s amazing that – I was talking to George earlier about just putting stuff out there. You just put stuff out there and it comes back to you. We were talking about reciprocity. I don’t know if you remember that.
George: It was just like 10 minutes ago.
Dave: It’s borderline.
DC: DG will tell you about my memory.
Dave: I actually see, I feel like sometimes now I need to be the DC coach, the DC whisperer at Drift. I see so many people walk up and be like “DC, remember that thing you told me to do” and I just see the look in his eyes I’m like “No, he has no idea. You just gotta start over.”
George: It’s hard to get it because you’re so onto the next thing.
Dave: The moment is tough, yeah.
Remington: [crosstalk] because I’m like “well that was so five minutes ago” like there’s another 32 videos that I need to make.
DC: Totally. I feel like that about anything and just like Mondays, like what did you do this weekend? I’m like, I don’t even know.
Remington: It’s a Monday. I can’t look at my calendar on a week view. It has to be day.
DC: Same way. Look at that we’re the same. You better get on this …
Dave: A week view stresses me out.
Remington: It doesn’t even stress me out, I just can’t.
Dave: I like that. That’s like you keep coming up to my desk like “you have five minutes now” and I’m like “alright, let’s do it” You’re here, right?
So, the book though, in “Play Bigger” what stood out to me is that it’s not just that you need to create a category, it’s that they went back and they unpacked some of the most successful companies over the last 20 years and they all had basically one thing in common which is they went out and they created a new category, right? I mean Apple, to use Steve Jobs as an example, he did it 5-10 times right? He kept creating new categories. But there was Uber … and the biggest thing and this is what I think we have to do here at Drift to tie back to conversation marketing, is just like, it’s not just creating a category. The category has to be bigger than you in order for this to succeed.
And so they talk about Jawbone, you remember Jawbone, the headset. They talked about Jawbone, there was time where everybody was buying Jawbone, everything was talking about Jawbone, but they didn’t actually go out and invest the work in creating a bigger category and so when other companies started to come out with blue tooth and the wearables they just got their lunch ate.
DC: Yeah, one thing that we didn’t do is introduce Remington and George.
Dave: We didn’t introduce them? Oh. But isn’t that what makes this show so great?
DC: That’s true. But I learned so many interesting things about Remington.
Remington: Oh Lord.
DC: [crosstalk] A million lives. He lived on a boat in the Caribbean until he was 14? Is that right?
Remington: Yeah, 7 to 14. See his memory does work sometimes.
DC: Yeah, yeah, I just remembered that-
Dave: [crosstalk] That’s a good story though
Remington: Yeah on a boat.
Dave: That’s crazy.
George: Which you might know. It’s a triangle.
DC: Bermuda triangle? What? That explains you.
Remington: Yeah, we actually mentioned that in our podcast.
Dave: How did you get there? You’re 7 years old. From 7-14 you’re living in the Bermuda triangle?
Remington: So my dad looked at my mom like “I wanna travel the world” and pretty much “everyone pack up a bag” we jumped on the sailboat went from Bermuda down to the Caribbean and that was 7 years.
DC: DHD likes that, she’s a free spirit. She’s like “that sounds good”. “That sounds good, get on a boat”
George: [crosstalk] That’s just amazing. [inaudible] How other stories are like “yeah we lived in an apartment for 14 years in Des Moines.” Dude that’s a great story.
DC: Where did you grow up, George?
George: Oh, yeah. See I moved around a lot.
DC: See? These guys are deep.
George: But most of my life I lived in Montana. Blue sky, you know. I loved it, but I didn’t wanna be a cowboy, and I didn’t wanna work in a gas station and so I had to move on. But then I’ve also lived in California, Virginia, Texas, Ohio, and now North Carolina.
DC: You just keep moving?
George: About every 7 years until I met my wife, I had like really itchy feet and I’d just like go on to the next thing.
DC: Where’s your wife from?
George: She’s from Hartville, Ohio. And I lived there for 13 years, moved because of her, only her. And then 5 years we lived in another place and then we’ve been in North Carolina for 4 years which I love. We love
DC: [crosstalk] The NC? Man, this guy’s lived everywhere.
Dave: I know, I was just thinking about everybody has some interesting
DC: You have Florida on the west side, on the west coast of Florida.
George: Last week?
DC: He said it was good vibes.
DC: The two of us are vibin’. And so yeah we figured that out
Remington: 10 minutes ago. That’s crazy.
George: Well that might have been 12 minutes. That conversation [inaudible]
Dave: So you two are working together now? But you don’t work in the same office, right?
Remington: No George is remote, I’m in the office.
Dave: You were telling me this yesterday, you have an interesting setup though. You have a lot of remote people.
Remington: Yeah, so we’ve got four Remote people, including George now. And then I’ve got 10 in house.
Dave: But you were saying you just have the Zoom on a stage?
Remington: Like I urge people to just hang out on the Zoom meeting so they can hear the isms that go on during the day because remote staff sometimes can feel silent. Now granted sometimes, they like it but with zoom rooms they can unsolicited just chime into the collective which is our main situation room and they can just be hanging out right above the pod, so it’s fun
DC: The collective. The board.
Remington: The collective and wave finders.
DC: I love that, and he was telling me not to advertise for Zoom. Shout out Eric. That’s you, Zoom. They have Zoom rooms in every room. We don’t even have that.
Dave: What is a Zoom room? It’s like a hardware.
Remington: Yeah, it’s like this offline.
Dave: But we already said, I’m not the tech guy. There’s a lot of tech in this room.
Remington: So you know how many buttons you had to press in that conference room?
Dave: Every meeting starts like that.
Remington: One button on an iPad.
Dave: What are we doing? Look at how much gear you have! We don’t have that, are you kidding me?
George: We got this. We got mics. We got stuff here, do you want this?
DC: I didn’t know. [inaudible][crosstalk]
Remington: Well you got a new office coming.
DC: I’ll put it in there.
Have either of you read this book here?
George: I have not. I’ve never even heard, I think Thomas is taking it home.
DC: This is George’s copy here, but we’re gonna get a copy for Rem.
Dave: It’s called “Play Bigger” for those of you listening. How pirates, dreamers, and innovates create and dominate markets.
DC: Look at that. He is a pirate, he lived on a freakin boat.
Remington: Yeah, so this whole wave finder thing is very much-
DC: [crosstalk] Oh, that’s where it came from.
Remington: It’s very much understand where you need to go but you gotta understand where you’re coming from.
DC: Was your dad a pirate?
Remington: Kind of.
DC: Were you hunting for treasure?
Remington: No- always. Every day.
DC: Kind of like, Florida to me, is pretty much pirates.
Dave: Just pirates?
DC: Yeah, there’s like old people and pirates.
Dave: [crosstalk] He does he has family in Florida, every time he’s in Florida I know he’s in there cause I just get text messages like, “This place is weird”
DC: East coast.
Dave: Not weird in a bad way, just like it’s okay
DC: [crosstalk] It’s different, it’s just like old people, pirates.
George: They’re either offering you a piece of candy or like “arrrgh”
Remington: So the one thing I love about Florida is that every time you leave, you’re excited about going back, right? And I’ve been to a lot of places, and you look forward to going back home.
Dave: Yeah but you’ve been here all week man. The vibe in here –
Remington: [crosstalk] The vibe in here is
Dave: It’s pretty Drift-y. Alright so let’s talk about categories real quick, off the top of your head, a company that you can think, when you think category, what stands out?
George: See, you’ve already programmed me to say Apple.
Dave: Can’t say it. So that’s what Seeking Wisdom is about. Give me something, we’ve got time, we’ve got nowhere to go.
George: When I think of a company
DC: [crosstalk] These two are thinking “My brain hurts right now.”
George: Sonos. That’s the first thing that popped in my head for some reason. But probably cause I just bought some.
Remington: Cause you were just jammin’ out on your way
Dave: That’s a category, right? I mean, Bluetooth had existed, they didn’t invent Bluetooth, but now…
DC: And they work over wi-fi.
George: [crosstalk] [inaudible]
Dave: It’s become like a word now, right? Like “oh we gotta get a Sonos in the new office” I don’t even think that means get literally a Sonos, it means get wireless speakers. Alright, DC, what do you got?
DC: Easy one. Just Uber. But you mentioned that one before, which is cheating. Uber created a category. Alright makeup for us …
Dave: Kleenex. Cause you said word, you said Kleenex.
George: Cause it’s really a tissue.
Dave: Even when you’re reaching for a Puffs.
Remington: Yeah, Facebook though. So social media is super thick, but there’s so much out there. Facebook owns it, now they buy it. And they didn’t invent social networking either.
George: See this is where I wish I could be a time traveler. Cause I would go back like three minutes and I’d be like
Dave: I thought you were gonna say something about categories or social network.
Remington: We’re one team.
DC: That’s good. Look at that he made up for you. DG, you didn’t make up for me.
Dave: I’m facilitating this conversation.
DC: I’ve never seen the other side of this screen so Remington is looking at his- [crosstalk][inaudible] blank screen?
George: He’s like doing some insta right now. [crosstalk]
DC: Are you on insta?
Dave: I have notes, man. Someone’s gotta keep this show running. He’s the talent, he just says to show up. We gotta have this place nice, we gotta have some green skittles, green M&Ms just so he’ll show up.
George: Is that what you like? Green M&Ms?
Dave: That’s all I have.
DC: That’s it? We have guests here dude.
Dave: I thought we just have them come and talk.
DC: So tell us what you guys have been working on. Give us something, give the people something.
Remington: We’ve been working on a lot of things. I’m real excited to have George on the team. He’s gonna be impulse creative.
Dave: Use the promo code “seeking wisdom” for 20% your first month in the Drift bot.
Remington: So impulse creative … so I’m real excited about … there’s been a lot of conversations we’ve been having earlier about people graduating out of having service delivery and so George is gonna be commanding the- you wanna learn about inbound, you wanna learn about conversational, like that’s his job. And so he’s gonna be working hand in hand with clients and employees. And then we’re working on a podcast too.
DC: What’s it called?
Remington: Wave finding growth.
Dave: What does that mean, you’re “working” on a podcast? Like you’re recording episodes and you’re gonna release them? Release this week? [crosstalk] You’ve been podcasting for a while right?
George: 172 episodes of the hubcast.
Dave: That’s pretty good.
George: It’s really weird to start over.
Dave: But it’s fun though.
George: It’s fun and what I like is the conversations we’re gonna have is gonna be broader, and so that’s gonna be good.
DC: And when you start over, question, is it like “I’m gonna go in a whole different direction?”
George: No, I learned from things that we did historically and also implement things that I wished I would have done the first time. And it is a little bit of a different direction cause it’s not as specific or niche but it’s definitely relevant for people who wanna be super successful in business.
DC: And is that the category that it’d be under? Business? Marketing? Where would it be?
Dave: Kind of growth. Similar directions.
George: Marketing, sales, growth.
Remington: We have our faces on ours too.
Dave: Uh oh. That’s good. Another category that you guys are building.
George: Podcasts with faces on it.
DC: I don’t know if we can compete.
George: We’re just trying to keep up.
DC: You have a mug though? We don’t have a mug.
Dave: Merge that. I had just started at Drift that day. That was the first day. So day two, the forehead was less shiny, and then I started getting messages from DC “ping ping ping ping ping” and I like (noises)
George: Actually we’re starting new podcast categories since we’re talking about … we’re starting the how to make revenue category.
Dave: It’s like revenue off a podcast. Talk about that.
George: No it’s how to make revenue.
Remington: So actually, our episode talked about that.
DC: So we need to learn that.
Remington: How to make revenue from a podcast.
Remington: For sure.
DC: That’s awesome.
Dave: So that’s the underlying theme of your podcast is if you listen to your podcast, you’re gonna go make more money, for your podcast.
George: Yes, smarter, better, faster. It’s almost like the Six Million Dollar Man. They’ll get that.
DC: [crosstalk] You try to – look he’s glazed over.
Dave: I was on to next question. Is it on iTunes yet?
George: I don’t know, is it on iTunes yet? It’s on finding growth.com
Remington: And it’s a video podcast, so we’re doing a video podcast. So it’s taking a little bit more production. It’s all George’s thing there.
Dave: So what does that mean, a video podcast. Like on iTunes and Apple podcast you can watch a video for it?
George: Yeah so you can either listen to the audio version or you can watch the video version or you can go over to YouTube or you can go to Stitcher or eventually it’ll go to Spotify or Google Play or iheartradio.
Remington: And where did you make it show up the other day?
George: Where did I make it show up?
Remington: Yeah where did it show up?
DC: The podcast? On the internet?
George: [crosstalk][inaudible] .nerdy I.nerdy for [inaudible]. My wife was like “Dude what are you doing up so early? And you haven’t even brewed coffee yet.” And I was like “Baby I’m making —”
Dave: His Mohawk wasn’t even set.
George: So now I can wake up and I can go –
Dave: [crosstalk] “Give me Remington”
DC: Don’t say that.
George: What you can do, you can put it in your brief, and then all of a sudden it will just
Dave: [crosstalk] that’s awesome.
DC: Dude we don’t have a scale.
Dave: We don’t have a scale.
George: You should do a scale.
Dave: [crosstalk] Hey I know the guy, I’m gonna get Dave do my review. And no scale. We’ll add the scale. Lack of technical. I love that.
George: I love to get nerdy. But sometimes you also just have to educate people.
Remington: Not just the thinking about it but the doing and that’s actually the big underlying thing with the podcast.
DC: So we’ll have a link to it
Dave: Yeah we’ll link to it.
DC: What else we’ll have on the bottom here.
Dave: What should we have
Remington: Please leave six stars.
Dave: Six star review only
DC: And Remington, being on the podcast, you know how you do it, you leave it. Apple’s still broken and Stitcher’s broken by the way.
Dave: Can we fix- can you help- maybe George knows something. We’ve been trying to get in touch wit the people at Apple because they don’t allow anybody to leave six star reviews.
DC: You can leave five stars
Remington: You guys wanna create a category
DC: Yeah we wanna create a new category
Remington: For six stars
DC: Six stars, and then what people do is in the title or in the description they leave six stars.
Dave: Somebody at Apple knows by now. Somewhere, somebody filed a ticket for it somewhere
George: Well after this is over I’ll hit them up on speed dial
Dave: Whoa. I haven’t checked the ratings.
DC: He’s moving. Leave a little comment for DHE shoutout.
Dave: She’s been here for a year. She helped us bring Seeking Wisdom to video, which is amazing.
DC: And she’s going off somewhere and wish her good luck. Leave a little comment, shout it out.
Dave: We’re almost at 500 reviews by the way. 500 five star ratings.
Remington: So how much is almost?
Remington: Dude, we gotta get these people to review up.
Dave: You know what I’m realizing?
DC: Why don’t we have a thousand yet dude?
Dave: I don’t know. Again, ding, the review, not okay.
DC: [crosstalk] Hmm, 435.
Dave: Listen to this: I went to the most recent review on iTunes, May 7, 2018
DC: Remington, verify that please.
Dave: “Six stars, Cutting edge business growth advice” the stars say five but the review says six in the text. Six stars for the top two of them. Yeah shout out to E-carp, if you’re looking to stay on top of cutting edge marketing and business growth practices tune in to #seekingwisdom. “I love how DG & DC riff on what’s working with Drift and what’s top of mind for them as they scale the company. So many bits of wisdom for me to ponder throughout my day. Keep sharing the golden nuggets.” Aaron, shout out to you Aaron, six stars.
Remington: Boom Sauce.
George: He needs to drop the mic right there.
Dave: That’s it, take us out of here.
DC: Alright, so we’re out of here, leave a six star review.
Dave: Will we see you guys at Hypergrowth?
DC: Absolutely. Are you kidding me?
Dave: I wasn’t asking you, I was asking them, but
Remington: Which one?
Dave: Both of you.
Remington: No, which Hypergrowth?
DC: Yeah, we’ll go to both. If you wanna meet George and Remington in person, go to Hypergrowth.Drift.com promo code “seekingwisdom” shout it out so you get a nice discount and come hang with them. We’re all gonna be hanging together and rifting like this. And we can talk more about the Bermuda Triangle with Remington
DC: Boom. Remington: Shout out.
DC: See ya.